JaneQuotes - User contributions [en]

Main Page

2022-02-17T10:22:38Z

Karensu:

== Greetings! ==
Welcome to JaneQuotes. This page was set up by [mailto://apc11dj@yahoo.com Ian K. Hagemann] as a way to collect some of the quotes that he learned from his pal Jane E. Hawkins (whose Facebook picture is being used as the logo). Some of these are going to be paraphrases and some of these are going to be versions of things originally said by other people.

Jane and I got to be friends rather than acquaintances during the course of an argument about suicide that went way past midnight. Neither of us are afraid to talk about hard things with each other, so some of the quotes I'm contributing are about those kinds of topics.

This site is intended for those who knew Jane and/or want to learn some of the wisdom she acquired in her life. Please feel free to contribute any of her sayings that you like. My preference is to leave them in random order, but feel free to organize them if you absolutely need to do so: just don't worry about duplicating them in several categories and don't erase any :-).

If you would like to know more about Jane, please visit the [[Obituary|Jane's Obituary]] page.

Please note that this doesn't currently require anyone to get a membership in order to edit anything because I didn't want to impose any barriers to people contributing, but I am recommending that folks go ahead and create accounts if it's not too difficult.

Thanks go to my partner Sev for hosting this site.

== '''Quotes''' (in random order) ==
"Resentment is allowing other people to live in your brain rent-free."

Everybody gets a limited number of 'eccentricity points.' But if you use too many of them, then additional eccentricities turn into 'weirdness points,' and things that used to seem eccentric start to seem weird."

"I might always be deluding myself, but I think you ought to see if my thoughts about myself are accurate before dismissing them out of hand."

[About her depression]: "Ten years of purgatory and five years of hell."

[About her cancer]: "I figure I lost more years to depression than I did to cancer."

[About relationships]: "If it wasn't going to work with Luke, it wasn't going to work."

"I didn't ask every woman I knew, but every woman I ever asked about it said she'd been raped."

"I was in the first class [at her college] that allowed women to study to be engineers. It was rough, but at least we could check with each other about whether the professors were biased against us."

"I really wanted to get published before I was 40."

"Between black and white is not just gray but all the colors of the rainbow."

"Sometimes there can be a rape without a [person who intends to be a] rapist."

"I saw a scapegoating dynamic start up every year that I observed at Clarion West. It didn't always get fully developed, but it always got started."

"I put aside five years' worth of living expenses and then I quit my job. They had to hire three people to replace me, and some of my coworkers were shocked that I left."

[about Ian, who contributed this quote]: "We're both in the 'crazy mommy' club."

"It's hard to recognize anger when it only looks like 'mommy out of control.'"

"There's no real studies about the lung cancer risk for folks who smoke about a pack a week, like I do."

"One time, I was playing Boggle and someone came by to say 'Hey, look: you can get enough sex.'"

"My favorite way to screen partners (around monogamy, which Jane didn't practice) was to tell them stories about my life and see how they reacted."

"Only one person knew ahead of time about the fact that Luke and I were going to get married at Janecon, and I only told her because she wasn't going to be there otherwise."

One of the panels at Janecon [the convention that Jane threw where she married Luke] was "Eileen Gunn talks about whatever she wants to."

"At the end of her life, she was just 'Phyllis.' to me." [Jane started using the name Phyllis instead of "mom" to refer to the woman who birthed and raised Jane. Jane also took care of Phyllis in Jane's own home through the end of her life].

"If someone tells you that you have to choose between them and X, choose X" [I refer to this as "Hawkins' Law," and it has saved me many times.]

"I'm ashamed that my nation dropped bombs on the poorest people. We could have given them money instead."

"The Democratic Party and the Republican Party were like Coke and Pepsi."

"The internet was created by men's desire to kill and f*ck." [Because the internet was first invented for the military, and the first websites that helped gaining its popularity were porn sites].

"When I saw that plane crashed into the building, I was on the floor crying and saying that: 'We are going to go to war. We are going to go to war with the wrong people.'"

"The 'Wow -- heavy' approach many people take to such things as Zen annoys me. To each their own, I guess, but for me it is not 'heavy.' It is lovely, joyous -- and humorous. After my closest approach to understanding thus far, I laughed aloud, chuckled for hours and smiled for days. The glorious, loving humor of the world flabbergasts me.”

"Everyone has an art. If your art is growing dandelions in your parking strip, then you need to make room in your life to grow dandelions in your parking strip."

"I have a crystal ball. It sits on my shelf and looks pretty and never tells me anything about the future."

"Fight or flight are not the only two options. Tears and laughter both work."

"Men's behavior and women's behavior are like overlapping bell curves. Anyone of either gender can show any behavior, but the most likely behaviors fall in different places on the scale."

This is not exactly a quote, but the line about the Internet, above, reminded me: When arpanet and usenet first appeared, Jane and I were very excited. Imagine, we said, a worldwide network. "Imagine," paraphrasing Jane, here, "politicians wont be able to just *lie* about their statements and actions." As it turned out, we were way too optimistic. Or, maybe, naïve. We were so excited about what we thought it meant. --Olav Kvern

[http://janequotes.byz.org/index.php?title=Favor_Essay Do Me a Favor?] (an essay by Jane, on its own page)

== Technical Notes. ==
''These were automatically generated by the Wiki Software when this page was originally set up. Please leave them here for those of us who aren't Wiki experts.''

MediaWiki has been installed.

Consult the [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Help:Contents User's Guide] for information on using the wiki software.

== Getting started ==
* [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Manual:Configuration_settings Configuration settings list]
* [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Manual:FAQ MediaWiki FAQ]
* [https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/mediawiki-announce.lists.wikimedia.org/ MediaWiki release mailing list]
* [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Localisation#Translation_resources Localise MediaWiki for your language]
* [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Manual:Combating_spam Learn how to combat spam on your wiki]

Main Page

2022-02-17T10:19:25Z

Karensu: attempting to add a link to an essay by Jane, on a separate page

== Greetings! ==
Welcome to JaneQuotes. This page was set up by [mailto://apc11dj@yahoo.com Ian K. Hagemann] as a way to collect some of the quotes that he learned from his pal Jane E. Hawkins (whose Facebook picture is being used as the logo). Some of these are going to be paraphrases and some of these are going to be versions of things originally said by other people.

Jane and I got to be friends rather than acquaintances during the course of an argument about suicide that went way past midnight. Neither of us are afraid to talk about hard things with each other, so some of the quotes I'm contributing are about those kinds of topics.

This site is intended for those who knew Jane and/or want to learn some of the wisdom she acquired in her life. Please feel free to contribute any of her sayings that you like. My preference is to leave them in random order, but feel free to organize them if you absolutely need to do so: just don't worry about duplicating them in several categories and don't erase any :-).

If you would like to know more about Jane, please visit the [[Obituary|Jane's Obituary]] page.

Please note that this doesn't currently require anyone to get a membership in order to edit anything because I didn't want to impose any barriers to people contributing, but I am recommending that folks go ahead and create accounts if it's not too difficult.

Thanks go to my partner Sev for hosting this site.

== '''Quotes''' (in random order) ==
"Resentment is allowing other people to live in your brain rent-free."

Everybody gets a limited number of 'eccentricity points.' But if you use too many of them, then additional eccentricities turn into 'weirdness points,' and things that used to seem eccentric start to seem weird."

"I might always be deluding myself, but I think you ought to see if my thoughts about myself are accurate before dismissing them out of hand."

[About her depression]: "Ten years of purgatory and five years of hell."

[About her cancer]: "I figure I lost more years to depression than I did to cancer."

[About relationships]: "If it wasn't going to work with Luke, it wasn't going to work."

"I didn't ask every woman I knew, but every woman I ever asked about it said she'd been raped."

"I was in the first class [at her college] that allowed women to study to be engineers. It was rough, but at least we could check with each other about whether the professors were biased against us."

"I really wanted to get published before I was 40."

"Between black and white is not just gray but all the colors of the rainbow."

"Sometimes there can be a rape without a [person who intends to be a] rapist."

"I saw a scapegoating dynamic start up every year that I observed at Clarion West. It didn't always get fully developed, but it always got started."

"I put aside five years' worth of living expenses and then I quit my job. They had to hire three people to replace me, and some of my coworkers were shocked that I left."

[about Ian, who contributed this quote]: "We're both in the 'crazy mommy' club."

"It's hard to recognize anger when it only looks like 'mommy out of control.'"

"There's no real studies about the lung cancer risk for folks who smoke about a pack a week, like I do."

"One time, I was playing Boggle and someone came by to say 'Hey, look: you can get enough sex.'"

"My favorite way to screen partners (around monogamy, which Jane didn't practice) was to tell them stories about my life and see how they reacted."

"Only one person knew ahead of time about the fact that Luke and I were going to get married at Janecon, and I only told her because she wasn't going to be there otherwise."

One of the panels at Janecon [the convention that Jane threw where she married Luke] was "Eileen Gunn talks about whatever she wants to."

"At the end of her life, she was just 'Phyllis.' to me." [Jane started using the name Phyllis instead of "mom" to refer to the woman who birthed and raised Jane. Jane also took care of Phyllis in Jane's own home through the end of her life].

"If someone tells you that you have to choose between them and X, choose X" [I refer to this as "Hawkins' Law," and it has saved me many times.]

"I'm ashamed that my nation dropped bombs on the poorest people. We could have given them money instead."

"The Democratic Party and the Republican Party were like Coke and Pepsi."

"The internet was created by men's desire to kill and f*ck." [Because the internet was first invented for the military, and the first websites that helped gaining its popularity were porn sites].

"When I saw that plane crashed into the building, I was on the floor crying and saying that: 'We are going to go to war. We are going to go to war with the wrong people.'"

"The 'Wow -- heavy' approach many people take to such things as Zen annoys me. To each their own, I guess, but for me it is not 'heavy.' It is lovely, joyous -- and humorous. After my closest approach to understanding thus far, I laughed aloud, chuckled for hours and smiled for days. The glorious, loving humor of the world flabbergasts me.”

"Everyone has an art. If your art is growing dandelions in your parking strip, then you need to make room in your life to grow dandelions in your parking strip."

"I have a crystal ball. It sits on my shelf and looks pretty and never tells me anything about the future."

"Fight or flight are not the only two options. Tears and laughter both work."

"Men's behavior and women's behavior are like overlapping bell curves. Anyone of either gender can show any behavior, but the most likely behaviors fall in different places on the scale."

This is not exactly a quote, but the line about the Internet, above, reminded me: When arpanet and usenet first appeared, Jane and I were very excited. Imagine, we said, a worldwide network. "Imagine," paraphrasing Jane, here, "politicians wont be able to just *lie* about their statements and actions." As it turned out, we were way too optimistic. Or, maybe, naïve. We were so excited about what we thought it meant. --Olav Kvern

Do Me a Favor? (an essay by Jane, on its own page): [http://janequotes.byz.org/index.php?title=Favor_Essay]

== Technical Notes. ==
''These were automatically generated by the Wiki Software when this page was originally set up. Please leave them here for those of us who aren't Wiki experts.''

MediaWiki has been installed.

Consult the [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Help:Contents User's Guide] for information on using the wiki software.

== Getting started ==
* [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Manual:Configuration_settings Configuration settings list]
* [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Manual:FAQ MediaWiki FAQ]
* [https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/mediawiki-announce.lists.wikimedia.org/ MediaWiki release mailing list]
* [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Localisation#Translation_resources Localise MediaWiki for your language]
* [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/Manual:Combating_spam Learn how to combat spam on your wiki]

Favor Essay

2022-02-17T10:11:37Z

Karensu: replace -- with — gl8bally

An essay from Jane Hawkins about favors:

[Transcriber's Note: This essay first appeared in the ninth distribution of the APA (amateur press association) ''Intercourse,'' which is loosely focused on discussion of human relationships. For a time, the essay also appeared on one of Jane's personal web pages, but not in recent years, as far as I know. In early 2020, I approached Jane about sharing the essay more widely, again, and she had no objection, but wasn't sure where her own copy or copies were. Debbie Notkin and I searched Debbie's collection of ''Intercourse'' distributions until we found it. —Karen Summerly, February 2022]

'''<big>Do me a favor?</big>'''

By Jane E Hawkins, 1987

I was in Oakland most of January, and had many interesting chats with Mike and Deb. The last couple days we got into a series of discussions on favors. What is a favor? How do we and people we've known feel about giving and receiving favors? What obligations are incurred, if any, when someone does a favor? Attitudes differ from person to person, and these differences can make a nice thing into a minefield of resentments.

As I was driving home, I tried to formulate my ideas on the subject. Being a boxist (to borrow Dave Nee's word), I see the main differences as categorizing out to a couple of extreme positions, with most people operating on some mix that varies situationally. I'd like to see what you think of these ideas, which should be at least partially credited to Mike and Deb but blamed on me.

The Island: Some people feel strongly that a mature adult doesn't need help from other people. They see any exchange of favors as dependency. If you do a favor for them, they either feel intensely beholden, or irritated that you think they can't take care of themselves. If you ask for a favor, they are likely to scorn you for weakness. If they do the favor, they will remember it for a long, long time.

The Balancer: This person also operates out of fear of dependency, but deals with it by working religiously to keep things even. If you do a favor for a Balancer, you can bet that they're already figuring out how to pay you back—never mind whether you think it is necessary. If they do one for you, and you don't do enough for them, they will feel misused. In extreme, a Balancer rejects the concept of favors as a nice thing one person does for another, and sees it all as a sort of commercial transaction.

No Big Deal: Their basic assumption is that no one does a hard favor for anyone else. They reflexively assume that any favor done for them was easy. If you do something for them and expect repayment, they are startled. "If it was such a big deal, you shouldn't have done it." They may be quite generous when it suits them. Their behavior can look like evasion of responsibility, but that may be too simple an explanation in some cases.

With a Glad Heart: They feel strongly that favors should be something you do for the pleasure of helping the other person. Like the NBD, they object to the idea of return favors, though for a different reason—they feel it devalues the favor. Unlike the NBD, the WAGH will go to some lengths to help out people they care about. If you do something for them, they will feel bad if they think it is because of what they did last week.

These different attitudes can cause a lot of hard feelings. The NBD asks the Island for a favor, and is treated to a lecture on taking care of yourself. The Balancer tries to return a favor to a WAGH, and is hurt by their reaction. The Island gets pissed off at the WAGH for bringing them a hot meal when they're home in bed with the flu. The Balancer thinks the NBD is irresponsible. All are behaving honorably by their lights, and are baffled by what happens.

Do any of these extremes describe your usual mode of dealing with favors? If not, what does? I see myself as mostly a Balancer, and would like to be at least a bit more of a WAGH. I used to be an Island, and that still pops up sometimes. In college, my friend Denise got very angry when she found out I hadn't eaten for a couple days. "You think I wouldn't be happy to feed you?!!!" I apologized, and ate what she put in front of me, but didn't understand for years why she'd blown up.

[Related note: As of February 2022, the APA ''Intercourse ''is still active, 36+ years after Debbie Notkin sent out invitations for its founding.]

Favor Essay

2022-02-17T10:07:25Z

Karensu: tweaks

An essay from Jane Hawkins about favors:

[Transcriber's Note: This essay first appeared in the ninth distribution of the APA (amateur press association) ''Intercourse,'' which is loosely focused on discussion of human relationships. For a time, the essay also appeared on one of Jane's personal web pages, but not in recent years, as far as I know. In early 2020, I approached Jane about sharing the essay more widely, again, and she had no objection, but wasn't sure where her own copy or copies were. Debbie Notkin and I searched Debbie's collection of ''Intercourse'' distributions until we found it. --Karen Summerly, February 2022]

'''<big>Do me a favor?</big>'''

By Jane E Hawkins, 1987

I was in Oakland most of January, and had many interesting chats with Mike and Deb. The last couple days we got into a series of discussions on favors. What is a favor? How do we and people we've known feel about giving and receiving favors? What obligations are incurred, if any, when someone does a favor? Attitudes differ from person to person, and these differences can make a nice thing into a minefield of resentments.

As I was driving home, I tried to formulate my ideas on the subject. Being a boxist (to borrow Dave Nee's word), I see the main differences as categorizing out to a couple of extreme positions, with most people operating on some mix that varies situationally. I'd like to see what you think of these ideas, which should be at least partially credited to Mike and Deb but blamed on me.

The Island: Some people feel strongly that a mature adult doesn't need help from other people. They see any exchange of favors as dependency. If you do a favor for them, they either feel intensely beholden, or irritated that you think they can't take care of themselves. If you ask for a favor, they are likely to scorn you for weakness. If they do the favor, they will remember it for a long, long time.

The Balancer: This person also operates out of fear of dependency, but deals with it by working religiously to keep things even. If you do a favor for a Balancer, you can bet that they're already figuring out how to pay you back--never mind whether you think it is necessary. If they do one for you, and you don't do enough for them, they will feel misused. In extreme, a Balancer rejects the concept of favors as a nice thing one person does for another, and sees it all as a sort of commercial transaction.

No Big Deal: Their basic assumption is that no one does a hard favor for anyone else. They reflexively assume that any favor done for them was easy. If you do something for them and expect repayment, they are startled. "If it was such a big deal, you shouldn't have done it." They may be quite generous when it suits them. Their behavior can look like evasion of responsibility, but that may be too simple an explanation in some cases.

With a Glad Heart: They feel strongly that favors should be something you do for the pleasure of helping the other person. Like the NBD, they object to the idea of return favors, though for a different reason--they feel it devalues the favor. Unlike the NBD, the WAGH will go to some lengths to help out people they care about. If you do something for them, they will feel bad if they think it is because of what they did last week.

These different attitudes can cause a lot of hard feelings. The NBD asks the Island for a favor, and is treated to a lecture on taking care of yourself. The Balancer tries to return a favor to a WAGH, and is hurt by their reaction. The Island gets pissed off at the WAGH for bringing them a hot meal when they're home in bed with the flu. The Balancer thinks the NBD is irresponsible. All are behaving honorably by their lights, and are baffled by what happens.

Do any of these extremes describe your usual mode of dealing with favors? If not, what does? I see myself as mostly a Balancer, and would like to be at least a bit more of a WAGH. I used to be an Island, and that still pops up sometimes. In college, my friend Denise got very angry when she found out I hadn't eaten for a couple days. "You think I wouldn't be happy to feed you?!!!" I apologized, and ate what she put in front of me, but didn't understand for years why she'd blown up.

[Related note: As of February 2022, the APA ''Intercourse ''is still active, 36+ years after Debbie Notkin sent out invitations for its founding.]

Favor Essay

2022-02-17T10:05:57Z

Karensu: formatting tweaks

An essay from Jane Hawkins about favors:

[Transcriber's Note: This essay first appeared in the ninth distribution of the APA (amateur press association) ''Intercourse,'' which is loosely focused on discussion of human relationships. For a time, the essay also appeared on one of Jane's personal web pages, but not in recent years, as far as I know. In early 2020, I approached Jane about sharing the essay more widely, again, and she had no objection, but wasn't sure where her own copy or copies were. Debbie Notkin and I searched Debbie's collection of ''Intercourse'' distributions until we found it. --Karen Summerly, February 2022]

'''<big>Do me a favor?</big>'''

By Jane E Hawkins, 1987

I was in Oakland most of January, and had many interesting chats with Mike and Deb. The last couple days we got into a series of discussions on favors. What is a favor? How do we and people we've known feel about giving and receiving favors? What obligations are incurred, if any, when someone does a favor? Attitudes differ from person to person, and these differences can make a nice thing into a minefield of resentments.

As I was driving home, I tried to formulate my ideas on the subject. Being a boxist (to borrow Dave Nee's word), I see the main differences as categorizing out to a couple of extreme positions, with most people operating on some mix that varies situationally. I'd like to see what you think of these ideas, which should be at least partially credited to Mike and Deb but blamed on me.

The Island: Some people feel strongly that a mature adult doesn't need help from other people. They see any exchange of favors as dependency. If you do a favor for them, they either feel intensely beholden, or irritated that you think they can't take care of themselves. If you ask for a favor, they are likely to scorn you for weakness. If they do the favor, they will remember it for a long, long time.

The Balancer: This person also operates out of fear of dependency, but deals with it by working religiously to keep things even. If you do a favor for a Balancer, you can bet that they're already figuring out how to pay you back--never mind whether you think it is necessary. If they do one for you, and you don't do enough for them, they will feel misused. In extreme, a Balancer rejects the concept of favors as a nice thing one person does for another, and sees it all as a sort of commercial transaction.

No Big Deal: Their basic assumption is that no one does a hard favor for anyone else. They reflexively assume that any favor done for them was easy. If you do something for them and expect repayment, they are startled. "If it was such a big deal, you shouldn't have done it." They may be quite generous when it suits them. Their behavior can look like evasion of responsibility, but that may be too simple an explanation in some cases.

With a Glad Heart: They feel strongly that favors should be something you do for the pleasure of helping the other person. Like the NBD, they object to the idea of return favors, though for a different reason--they feel it devalues the favor. Unlike the NBD, the WAGH will go to some lengths to help out people they care about. If you do something for them, they will feel bad if they think it is because of what they did last week.

These different attitudes can cause a lot of hard feelings. The NBD asks the Island for a favor, and is treated to a lecture on taking care of yourself. The Balancer tries to return a favor to a WAGH, and is hurt by their reaction. The Island gets pissed off at the WAGH for bringing them a hot meal when they're home in bed with the flu. The Balancer thinks the NBD is irresponsible. All are behaving honorably by their lights, and are baffled by what happens.

Do any of these extremes describe your usual mode of dealing with favors? If not, what does? I see myself as mostly a Balancer, and would like to be at least a bit more of a WAGH. I used to be an Island, and that still pops up sometimes. In college, my friend Denise got very angry when she found out I hadn't eaten for a couple days. "You think I wouldn't be happy to feed you?!!!" I apologized, and ate what she put in front of me, but didn't understand for years why she'd blown up.

[Related note: As of February 2022, the APA Intercourse is still active, 36+ years after Debbie Notkin sent out invitations for its founding.]

Favor Essay

2022-02-17T10:04:47Z

Karensu:

An essay from Jane Hawkins about favors:

[Transcriber's Note: This essay first appeared in the ninth distribution of the APA (amateur press association) ''Intercourse,'' which is loosely focused on discussion of human relationships. For a time, the essay also appeared on one of Jane's personal web pages, but not in recent years, as far as I know. In early 2020, I approached Jane about sharing the essay more widely, again, and she had no objection, but wasn't sure where her own copy or copies were. Debbie Notkin and I searched Debbie's collection of ''Intercourse'' distributions until we found it. --Karen Summerly, February 2022]

'''<big>Do me a favor?</big>'''

By Jane E Hawkins, 1987

I was in Oakland most of January, and had many interesting chats with Mike and Deb. The last couple days we got into a series of discussions on favors. What is a favor? How do we and people we've known feel about giving and receiving favors? What obligations are incurred, if any, when someone does a favor? Attitudes differ from person to person, and these differences can make a nice thing into a minefield of resentments.

As I was driving home, I tried to formulate my ideas on the subject. Being a boxist (to borrow Dave Nee's word), I see the main differences as categorizing out to a couple of extreme positions, with most people operating on some mix that varies situationally. I'd like to see what you think of these ideas, which should be at least partially credited to Mike and Deb but blamed on me.

The Island: Some people feel strongly that a mature adult doesn't need help from other people. They see any exchange of favors as dependency. If you do a favor for them, they either feel intensely beholden, or irritated that you think they can't take care of themselves. If you ask for a favor, they are likely to scorn you for weakness. If they do the favor, they will remember it for a long, long time.

The Balancer: This person also operates out of fear of dependency, but deals with it by working religiously to keep things even. If you do a favor for a Balancer, you can bet that they're already figuring out how to pay you back--never mind whether you think it is necessary. If they do one for you, and you don't do enough for them, they will feel misused. In extreme, a Balancer rejects the concept of favors as a nice thing one person does for another, and sees it all as a sort of commercial transaction.

No Big Deal: Their basic assumption is that no one does a hard favor for anyone else. They reflexively assume that any favor done for them was easy. If you do something for them and expect repayment, they are startled. "If it was such a big deal, you shouldn't have done it." They may be quite generous when it suits them. Their behavior can look like evasion of responsibility, but that may be too simple an explanation in some cases.

With a Glad Heart: They feel strongly that favors should be something you do for the pleasure of helping the other person. Like the NBD, they object to the idea of return favors, though for a different reason--they feel it devalues the favor. Unlike the NBD, the WAGH will go to some lengths to help out people they care about. If you do something for them, they will feel bad if they think it is because of what they did last week.

These different attitudes can cause a lot of hard feelings. The NBD asks the Island for a favor, and is treated to a lecture on taking care of yourself. The Balancer tries to return a favor to a WAGH, and is hurt by their reaction. The Island gets pissed off at the WAGH for bringing them a hot meal when they're home in bed with the flu. The Balancer thinks the NBD is irresponsible. All are behaving honorably by their lights, and are baffled by what happens.

Do any of these extremes describe your usual mode of dealing with favors? If not, what does? I see myself as mostly a Balancer, and would like to be at least a bit more of a WAGH. I used to be an Island, and that still pops up sometimes. In college, my friend Denise got very angry when she found out I hadn't eaten for a couple days. "You think I wouldn't be happy to feed you?!!!" I apologized, and ate what she put in front of me, but didn't understand for years why she'd blown up.

[Related note: As of February 2022, the APA Intercourse is still active, 36+ years after Debbie Notkin sent out invitations for its founding.]

Favor Essay

2022-02-17T10:03:11Z

Karensu: minor formatting changes and dating of final note

An essay from Jane Hawkins about favors:

[Transcriber's Note: This essay first appeared in the ninth distribution of the APA (amateur press association) ''Intercourse,'' which is loosely focused on discussion of human relationships. For a time, the essay also appeared on one of Jane's personal web pages, but not in recent years, as far as I know. In early 2020, I approached Jane about sharing the essay more widely, again, and she had no objection, but wasn't sure where her own copy or copies were. Debbie Notkin and I searched Debbie's collection of ''Intercourse'' distributions until we found it. --Karen Summerly, February 2022]

'''<big>Do me a favor?</big>'''

By Jane E Hawkins, 1987

I was in Oakland most of January, and had many interesting chats with Mike and Deb. The last couple days we got into a series of discussions on favors. What is a favor? How do we and people we've known feel about giving and receiving favors? What obligations are incurred, if any, when someone does a favor? Attitudes differ from person to person, and these differences can make a nice thing into a minefield of resentments.

As I was driving home, I tried to formulate my ideas on the subject. Being a boxist (to borrow Dave Nee's word), I see the main differences as categorizing out to a couple of extreme positions, with most people operating on some mix that varies situationally. I'd like to see what you think of these ideas, which should be at least partially credited to Mike and Deb but blamed on me.

The Island: Some people feel strongly that a mature adult doesn't need help from other people. They see any exchange of favors as dependency. If you do a favor for them, they either feel intensely beholden, or irritated that you think they can't take care of themselves. If you ask for a favor, they are likely to scorn you for weakness. If they do the favor, they will remember it for a long, long time.

The Balancer: This person also operates out of fear of dependency, but deals with it by working religiously to keep things even. If you do a favor for a Balancer, you can bet that they're already figuring out how to pay you back--never mind whether you think it is necessary. If they do one for you, and you don't do enough for them, they will feel misused. In extreme, a Balancer rejects the concept of favors as a nice thing one person does for another, and sees it all as a sort of commercial transaction.

No Big Deal: Their basic assumption is that no one does a hard favor for anyone else. They reflexively assume that any favor done for them was easy. If you do something for them and expect repayment, they are startled. "If it was such a big deal, you shouldn't have done it." They may be quite generous when it suits them. Their behavior can look like evasion of responsibility, but that may be too simple an explanation in some cases.

With a Glad Heart: They feel strongly that favors should be something you do for the pleasure of helping the other person. Like the NBD, they object to the idea of return favors, though for a different reason--they feel it devalues the favor. Unlike the NBD, the WAGH will go to some lengths to help out people they care about. If you do something for them, they will feel bad if they think it is because of what they did last week.

These different attitudes can cause a lot of hard feelings. The NBD asks the Island for a favor, and is treated to a lecture on taking care of yourself. The Balancer tries to return a favor to a WAGH, and is hurt by their reaction. The Island gets pissed off at the WAGH for bringing them a hot meal when they're home in bed with the flu. The Balancer thinks the NBD is irresponsible. All are behaving honorably by their lights, and are baffled by what happens.

Do any of these extremes describe your usual mode of dealing with favors? If not, what does? I see myself as mostly a Balancer, and would like to be at least a bit more of a WAGH. I used to be an Island, and that still pops up sometimes. In college, my friend Denise got very angry when she found out I hadn't eaten for a couple days. "You think I wouldn't be happy to feed you?!!!" I apologized, and ate what she put in front of me, but didn't understand for years why she'd blown up.

[Related note: the APA Intercourse is still active, 36+ years after Debbie Notkin sent out invitations for its founding.]
[Related note: As if February 2022, the APA ''Intercourse'' is still active, 36+ years after Debbie Notkin sent out invitations for its founding.]

Favor Essay

2022-02-17T09:59:42Z

Karensu: Entered Jane's essay re attitudes about doing favors, on its own page

An essay from Jane Hawkins about favors:

[Transcriber's Note: This essay first appeared in the ninth distribution of the APA (amateur press association) ''Intercourse,'' which is loosely focused on discussion of human relationships. For a time, the essay also appeared on one of Jane's personal web pages, but not in recent years, as far as I know. In early 2020, I approached Jane about sharing the essay more widely, again, and she had no objection, but wasn't sure where her own copy or copies were. Debbie Notkin and I searched Debbie's collection of ''Intercourse'' distributions until we found it. --Karen Summerly, February 2022]

'''<big>Do me a favor?</big>'''

By Jane E Hawkins, 1987

I was in Oakland most of January, and had many interesting chats with Mike and Deb. The last couple days we got into a series of discussions on favors. What is a favor? How do we and people we've known feel about giving and receiving favors? What obligations are incurred, if any, when someone does a favor? Attitudes differ from person to person, and these differences can make a nice thing into a minefield of resentments.

As I was driving home, I tried to formulate my ideas on the subject. Being a boxist (to borrow Dave Nee's word), I see the main differences as categorizing out to a couple of extreme positions, with most people operating on some mix that varies situationally. I'd like to see what you think of these ideas, which should be at least partially credited to Mike and Deb but blamed on me.

The Island: Some people feel strongly that a mature adult doesn't need help from other people. They see any exchange of favors as dependency. If you do a favor for them, they either feel intensely beholden, or irritated that you think they can't take care of themselves. If you ask for a favor, they are likely to scorn you for weakness. If they do the favor, they will remember it for a long, long time.

The Balancer: This person also operates out of fear of dependency, but deals with it by working religiously to keep things even. If you do a favor for a Balancer, you can bet that they're already figuring out how to pay you back--never mind whether you think it is necessary. If they do one for you, and you don't do enough for them, they will feel misused. In extreme, a Balancer rejects the concept of favors as a nice thing one person does for another, and sees it all as a sort of commercial transaction.

No Big Deal: Their basic assumption is that no one does a hard favor for anyone else. They reflexively assume that any favor done for them was easy. If you do something for them and expect repayment, they are startled. "If it was such a big deal, you shouldn't have done it." They may be quite generous when it suits them. Their behavior can look like evasion of responsibility, but that may be too simple an explanation in some cases.

With a Glad Heart: They feel strongly that favors should be something you do for the pleasure of helping the other person. Like the NBD, they object to the idea of return favors, though for a different reason--they feel it devalues the favor. Unlike the NBD, the WAGH will go to some lengths to help out people they care about. If you do something for them, they will feel bad if they think it is because of what they did last week.

These different attitudes can cause a lot of hard feelings. The NBD asks the Island for a favor, and is treated to a lecture on taking care of yourself. The Balancer tries to return a favor to a WAGH, and is hurt by their reaction. The Island gets pissed off at the WAGH for bringing them a hot meal when they're home in bed with the flu. The Balancer thinks the NBD is irresponsible. All are behaving honorably by their lights, and are baffled by what happens.

Do any of these extremes describe your usual mode of dealing with favors? If not, what does? I see myself as mostly a Balancer, and would like to be at least a bit more of a WAGH. I used to be an Island, and that still pops up sometimes. In college, my friend Denise got very angry when she found out I hadn't eaten for a couple days. "You think I wouldn't be happy to feed you?!!!" I apologized, and ate what she put in front of me, but didn't understand for years why she'd blown up.

[Related note: the APA Intercourse is still active, 36+ years after Debbie Notkin sent out invitations for its founding.]